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21 Votes
31 Comments
Them and Us: How Neanderthal predation created modern humans - new book and theory of human origins
News Type: Event — Seeded on Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:24 PM EDT
Article Source: themandus.orgadvertisement
what neanderthals really looked like
Evolutionary detective Danny Vendramini argues in 'Them and Us' that anthropomorphism -our propensity to see Neanderthals much like ourselves- has blurred western thinking on all things Neanderthals.
He argues that facial reconstructions on Neanderthals based on human faces are misleading, and that primates provide a better analogue for reconstructing facial characteristics of Neanderthals.
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{"commentId":10152974,"authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
If you're disturbed by these images, there're a good reason for it. Like other prey species,
humans have an innate capacity to recognize our natural predator. What Neanderthals
'felt' like is hardwired into our genes. Neanderthal predation was so traumatic that
even 28,000 years after the last Neanderthal disappeared, they can still push our buttons.
{"commentId":10152974,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
- 3 votes
#1 - Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:26 PM EDT{"commentId":10176255,"authorDomain":"mwestenfelder"}
well, it could also be because the mouth stands open to bleak teeth and the eye iris are vertical slits like that of feline
I guess, somebody WANTS to scare you.
BTW, rich carvings and musical instruments have meanwhile been found in Neanderthal dwellings. Doesn't really square with the pics, does it?
{"commentId":10176255,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"mwestenfelder"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":10177597,"authorDomain":"PrimarySources"}
I finally saw the movie version of 'Clan of the Cave Bear' last week.
They didn't look anything like these guys....
; )
{"commentId":10177597,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"PrimarySources"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":10178720,"authorDomain":"bobnelsonfrance"}
They didn't look anything like these guys....
... but probably more accurate...
{"commentId":10178720,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"bobnelsonfrance"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":10153200,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
Very interesting.
{"commentId":10153200,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"wingod"}
- 5 votes
#2 - Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:50 PM EDT{"commentId":10153342,"authorDomain":"overmountainman"}
Fascinating...
{"commentId":10153342,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"overmountainman"}
- 5 votes
#3 - Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:06 PM EDT{"commentId":10153391,"authorDomain":"justtim"}
The only aspect of the images I found remotely disturbing was the pupils of the eyes. I note that a feline or reptilian shape is suggested, and cats and reptiles are known human predators.
I wonder what the primate basis for such reconstruction was? Given the human fascination with observing eyes to determine threat, I call shenanigans.
{"commentId":10153391,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"justtim"}
- 3 votes
#4 - Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:11 PM EDT{"commentId":10156000,"authorDomain":"bobnelsonfrance"}
... perhaps to make the images scarier? And then there is the rictus of the lips...
I second: "Shenanigans!"
{"commentId":10156000,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"bobnelsonfrance"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":10168068,"authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
If you read the first 3 chapters of the book, he explains that nocturnal primates have vertical pupils, because it protects the eyes during daylight hours. It works with the rest of the data. Check it out.
{"commentId":10168068,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":10173763,"authorDomain":"justtim"}
Thank you gladbutterfly, I will read those chapters and probably buy the book. "NP theory" looks imaginative and entertaining.
However an enlarged orbit only indicates that an animal MAY have an enlarged eye, and an enlarged eye only indicates that an animal MAY be nocturnal or crepuscular. Exceptions certainly exist...
It wouldn't be surprising to find two or more nocturnal adaptations to the eye (enlargement, slit pupil) in a creature that's highly specialized for nocturnal life, but Neanderthals exhibit generalization rather than specialization in some very human ways. Generalized dentition, overall morphology indicating a reliance on tools and strategy rather than any specific physical adaptations to a single environment.
Gross osteology indicates an erect bipedal gait and manipulating hands as well as the brain to use them...these are the marks of a creature that specializes in generalization. Positing remarkable specialization in one organ of such a creature requires remarkable evidence. Based on skeletal evidence it isn't out of line to say that Neanderthals and modern humans shared a fairly recent common ancestor. Because of this the conservative approach would be to assume that soft tissues were strikingly similar between the two.
This book looks like good fun, but the author seems to ignore some pretty solid alternative interpretations regarding not just Neanderthals but also modern humans. I'll reserve the right to change my mind after reading the book, but so far it seems the author's imagination is worthy of admiration (and the price of a book), even if his scientific rigor is not.
{"commentId":10173763,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"justtim"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":10187451,"authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
I agree, Tim, it's a great story, and just in time for Hallowe'en. It's an easy read, just right for bedtime, with popcorn. As for the science, I'll leave that decision up to the other paleontologists.
{"commentId":10187451,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":10207812,"authorDomain":"blessed-isles"}
I strongly disagree with the author on several points, not the least of which is the origination of modern human behavior in the Levant. Too much of his theory is speculative. It does make a good story, however.
{"commentId":10207812,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"blessed-isles"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":10211562,"authorDomain":"PrimarySources"}
Ah, hell, Brin...it makes as much as sense as Clovis First......
; )
{"commentId":10211562,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"PrimarySources"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":10153397,"authorDomain":"xoxchi"}
Where is Thy Deity now, Neanderthal??
Cro-Magnons Rule!!
{"commentId":10153397,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"xoxchi"}
- 6 votes
#5 - Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:12 PM EDT{"commentId":10153402,"authorDomain":"tragicstory"}
I'm sorry, but this is BS. Midocondrial DNA proves that the two species were not closely related at all. Secondly, idea of the "closeness" of our two species is not bases on cranial simularities, but tools and culture. (fire, burial, tools, etc.)
Furthermore, there is no, NONE WHATSOEVER, evidence of how furry or smooth skinned ANY prehistoric human or humanoid species was. It is all conjecture... Like what colors dinosaurs were.
To believe this crap that neanderthals were "sub-human monsters" just panders to the most basic of Darwinian idea of human superiority.
{"commentId":10153402,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"tragicstory"}
- 6 votes
#6 - Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:13 PM EDT{"commentId":10154045,"authorDomain":"dbjkatz"}
I agree with you except for the part about mitochondrial DNA. Most mammals will share similar mitochondrial DNA simply because mitochondria have changed relatively little over the course of eukaryotic evolution.
Analysis of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) shows a degree of variation not found among human populations alive today. This is consistent with the view that Neanderthals scattered across Europe and the Middle East were largely isolated from other groups of Neanderthals and mated with them infrequently. Since mitochondrial inheritance is maternal, high variation in mtDNA simply reflects fragmented gene pools.
Modern humans supposedly went through a bottleneck around 70,000 years ago after an Indonesian supervolcano erupted and wiped out a large part of the human population, esp. in the tropics. The survivors of this catastrophe (perhaps numbering 10,000 or less) rebounded and migrated throughout the Old World by 20,000 years ago.
In the big picture, however, there is relatively little difference in the sequences of nuclear DNA that comprises actual genetic elements (approximately 2% of total human DNA). In contrast, non-coding DNA sequences can withstand far more alterations (point mutations, inversions, translocations, etc.) before cell viability is threatened.
Consider the genes that code for hemoglobin or insulin. There is a > 95% match between human and chimpanzee hemoglobin and only one amino acid difference between human insulin and pork insulin. That's no accident. If a protein is finely tuned to carry out a specific function (oxygen transport or glucose entry, respectively), there is selective pressure on the genes coding for those proteins not to incur significant change.
{"commentId":10154045,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"dbjkatz"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":10154206,"authorDomain":"pennyschinke"}
Sir Alister Hardy's idea of a semi-aquatic history for the human model as written by Elaine Morgan in "The Descent of Woman" is not feminist tripe, but very logical and common sensible. And now that they have found 4.4 million year old Ardi, we are getting closer to the truth.....maybe.
Besides, why does everything have to "die out", we have birds and reptiles that are direct descendants of dinosaurs. Everything on earth right now has "evolved" from something in the past.
JMHO....PS.
{"commentId":10154206,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"pennyschinke"}
- 1 vote
#7 - Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:27 PM EDT{"commentId":10162695,"authorDomain":"snvcogar"}
And now that they have found 4.4 million year old Ardi, we are getting closer to the truth.....maybe.
Penn-33, I agree wholeheartedly. And I'm sure they will eventually find "link" to the Hobbits.
Nothing makes sense in the evolution of Homo sapiens except a close association with a water environment.
{"commentId":10162695,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"snvcogar"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":10154212,"authorDomain":"kperodin"}
One speculation in that article does not ring true: Neanderthals predating on humans. Archeology seems to have proved the opposite: our branch pushed the neanderthals to their extinction.
{"commentId":10154212,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"kperodin"}
- 7 votes
#8 - Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:27 PM EDT{"commentId":10154218,"authorDomain":"ninbyo"}
Yeah... I've never seen any primates that have the vertical slit iris as the illustrations show. I know, chimps, gorillas and orangutans all have eyes like ours. Even more primitive primates like lemurs and lorises have the circular irises.
{"commentId":10154218,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"ninbyo"}
- 4 votes
#9 - Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:28 PM EDT{"commentId":10154253,"authorDomain":"kperodin"}
I too question those eyes. They give me reason to believe that the scientific basis for these drawings is non-existent.
{"commentId":10154253,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"kperodin"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":10168145,"authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
Read the first three chapters of his book. The vertical irises are explained as similar to nocturnal primates today. The key is that they are nocturnal too, so scary. This is a great Hallowe'en story. The wild things, indeed.
{"commentId":10168145,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":10172000,"authorDomain":"kperodin"}
This is a great Hallowe'en story.
"Once upon a time, the was a..." ô¿ô
True.
{"commentId":10172000,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"kperodin"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":10172097,"authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
I can't wait for the movie:-)
{"commentId":10172097,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"inghar2004"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":10154247,"authorDomain":"nkycarbon"}
Now redraw these hairy neanderthals with red hair and pale skin. Do they strike more fear now?
Newsvine - Report Connects Red Hair to Neanderthals
I'm assuming if the fair skin became popular then it would indicate at least thinning hair.
{"commentId":10154247,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"nkycarbon"}
- 4 votes
#10 - Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:31 PM EDT{"commentId":10154273,"authorDomain":"whatanoddguy"}
I clicked through that site enough to conclude that the guys a loon. Apparently neanderthalic predation is the reason why human beings do everything that's idiosyncratically human (and a few things that other primates do to). Also he doesn't feel the need to provide much in the way of evidence to back his claims.
{"commentId":10154273,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"whatanoddguy"}
- 5 votes
#11 - Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:33 PM EDT{"commentId":10155377,"authorDomain":"alkimija"}
And here I had this image of Neanderthals burying their dead with flowers.
Nothing guaranteed to sell books faster than a rapin' cannibal critter, though.
Interesting theory, but it would have to show a lot more evidence of them eating us rather than us killing them.
{"commentId":10155377,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"alkimija"}
- 3 votes
#12 - Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:41 AM EDT{"commentId":10163024,"authorDomain":"snvcogar"}
If one is to believe that Neanderthals and H. sapiens cross-bred then I will have to discredit the artist's portrayed picture of what a Neanderthal looked like.
{"commentId":10163024,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"snvcogar"}
- 1 vote
#13 - Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:25 PM EDT{"commentId":10163088,"authorDomain":"willywilson"}
Thank you for your research. I was wondering if you can give us some details about the Neanderthal man? For example, what was his country of origen? Was he a professional man or a tradesman? What was his marital status? Educational background? Do you know anything about his family?
{"commentId":10163088,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"willywilson"}
#14 - Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:27 PM EDT{"commentId":10175441,"authorDomain":"PrimarySources"}
Cool find, Glad.
Sorry I didn't catch this sooner! Interesting stuff.
{"commentId":10175441,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"PrimarySources"}
- 2 votes
#15 - Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:40 PM EDT{"commentId":10176688,"authorDomain":"swamijim-1"}
Cool pics-- the guy's probably gonna sell a lot of books, but swamijim sez it'll turn out to be blue smoke & mirrors. A) as noted above, we have NO data on protohuman hairyness, so making the Neanderthal look like a spear-carrying Sassquatch is as much of a leap as concluding they were hairless as a fashion model; B) I've not seen any data elsewhere to support the idea that Neanderthal WAS nocturnal, which you have to assume in order to justify the vertical pupil (tho it does make them look really creepy); C) if our hominid ancestors were 'prey species' for those superstrong Neanderthal nightstalkers in the pictures, how'd we ever manage to ace 'em out? D) ever since we got fire and tools (now starting to look like a helluva lot longer than we used to think), humans have been THE Class-A badass predators on this rock-- if we had an 'innate capacity to recognize our natural predator', we oughta be afraid to look in a mirror or breed with each other...
glad, I luv ya, and you're right, it's a great Halloween story. Vendramini's boogeymen still look like Morlocks to me...
{"commentId":10176688,"threadId":"704427","contentId":"3396216","authorDomain":"swamijim-1"}
- 2 votes
#16 - Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:46 PM EDT{"canLink":false,"threadId":"704427","isPrivate":false}
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